I couldn't help but think of a Expo Center/Delta Park based stadium for MLS/PSU/UP as I drove in from Vancouver this evening and saw another empty MAX train pull into the Expo Center. A similar proposal is being put together in San Jose as we speak:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_5502826?nclick_check=1

It won't happen, but it's nice to dream.

I believe we have had this discussion years ago but I wiil bring it up again anyway.

If the Blanchard location could handle a soccer/football stadium and the MC site was able to handle a MLB stadium. Would we want to slowly move our teams away from PGE Park?

Which is closer to the University of Portland campus (Blanchard or the Expo Center)?

Our discussions (limited at the time) in the past was about the Rose Quarter area not being able to handle more then one event at a time (parking and transportation).

I think it could and the resturants/bars/hostels would be viable with year round events. I'm still pushing for a "european" village area to the North of Blanchard down the road.

I think with streetcars, MAX, buses, bike paths, and a water taxi service from riverside bars and hotels we could handle two events at the same time handlely.

Sell the land under PGE Park at some point to help pay off the bonds (or when MLB comes calling) that will be needed to buy the Blanchard site; prepare the site; build two sections of the grand stands with temporary bleachers on each End Line/End Zone. Spend the money/maintenance for a grass playing surface.

I wonder what the UofP/PSU Football/Beavers folks think of all this?

BB

quote:

Originally posted by Rockstar:
Toooo much speculation. MLS will only play at PGE park and that means goodbye to the Beavers and the Timbers. All of this talk of how to configue these other sports with MLS is a non-stater. If MLS is serious then lets them back them on the PGE effort and forget about the Beavers. Lets not hold on to the second tier teams and shoot for the best (MLS is the best, so lets start there). AAA ball will and always will be minor leage, so if need be lets forget about them and shoot for the top. Maury has always stated the PDX is major league so why worry about the minors?

You are following my logic but I wouldn't go down your choice at the Y in the road. I would try to see if the cost is right to move PGE Park to be a grass only ("football only") stadium. Move the Beavers out to a improved local ballpartk (Lents Park?, Delta Park?). Or make improvements to Hillsboro Stadium (add a second grand stand) for larger crowds (more parking and a streetcar from the new Tannasbourne Village).

If you haven't heard, Hillsboro is talking 20-30 story point towers (10 of them for condos and apartments with ground floor retail) near where I work. The City of Hillsboro website has the Concept Plan pdf'd for your enjoyment. Mass Transit is a major point of infrastructure to wed the area to MAX. This concept plan is looking out 10 years and beyond.

Getting the City of Hillsboro to think about hooking up the Intel campuses; the Hillsboro Airport; the Tannsabourne Concept Area; and the stadium area would be a system not matched anywhere in the US. Ronler Acres and Hillsboro Stadium are very close to each other, by the way.

BB

Big Boomer
Look at the Phoenix sports scene. Two venues downtown and two in the burbs. The Glendale venues have spurred so much growth it is changing daily. You are correct Hillsboro could be the Glendale of PDX. One cash venue could be Tri-Met. If they succeed in building a Hotel, then that will open the door for more Tri-met dollars for private investment.

Rockstar,

You are mixing up Tri-Met with Metro, I believe. Two separate government entities with two totally different purposes and missions.

BB

Corrected!!! I believe it is Metro flirting with the hotel idea. Metro could be a major player for some type of sports stadium outside of the central city

Rockstar,

Metro could be and is a major player in the Central City. Their HQ is across the street from the convention center that they run. I believe they help run the Washington Park Zoo. They will support the concensus on sports venues. I think their political pull in this regards falls off the farther away from the City Center you go.

If Hillsboro and Washington County decides to support MLS at the Stadium and it can pencil out, then Metro would work toward its goals of getting people around the facility as efficiently as possible. By the way, there is alot of parking in that area that is not used on weekends (think nice revenue stream for businesses willing to have tail gate parties for a price/pay for a parking pass that has a liability waiver). So maybe the Hillsboro Stadium should be our NFL Stadium site down the road.

BB

One thing that is easier to accomplish in regards to MLS is that a suburban stadium can work. The history of soccer is not there yet to believe in the notion that you need a downtown ballpark. The Hillsboro stadium (which I was a major player in the construction some years ago) could be an ideal spot for such a sport. In the middle of high-tech, freeway access, light-rail close by, the medium income is greater with a 10 mile range (I believe) and a fast growing area with an even fast hispanic growth. With the widening of US26 the access for the eastsiders and central city fans really is not that bad (Bellevue or Redmond to Safeco can be a nightmare). Why not explore that site prior to PGE? Did the MSL reps go out there or did they just look at PGE with mayor won't listen to anything Potter?

I'm pretty sure the local "investor group" got an idea on how to deal. I believe there was a reason Don Garber didn't go balls-to-the-wall for PGE Park.

Of course, that's going to fry some of Timbers Army. After figuring out that the current ownership is only lukewarm to soccer interests, TA is probably going to be like the OSC group here as the volunteers to steer such an effort- and it is NOT quite suburban-friendly. I can only hope that a stadium is located near MAX. Hillsboro doesn't sound optimal to this group.

Of the MLS stadia that have been built, only Columbus Crew stadium is actually in the city limits of the main city... and fairly close to downtown only because of that Columbus quirk of the State Fairgrounds being close by.

Dallas errrrrrr Frisco and Denver errrrrr Commerce City are projects that incorporate both the main stadium and multi-field complexes usable by the full spectrum of playing participants. If there's a plot of land out there to be had, this might be more the outcome than some of the urbanized plans some of you are thinking of. I don't think you've grasped the possibilities of hosting tournaments that bring in many teams in many age groups from out of state; the one hosted in Boise brings in more money per year than the bowl game, plus having one of those complexes can bring regional championships every 10-12 years that potentially brings in more visitor dollars than most established non-BCS bowl games. Of course, that's not in the scope of TA either, unless a massive redevelopment of Portland Meadows and Delta Park is possible.

Home Depot Center is essentially a new Olympic training location- the soccer stadium anchors a soccer complex, a tennis center hosts major tournaments, a running track is used for training and competition, and I believe a new velodrome has replaced the '84 Olympic facility. It makes you wonder how Cal-State Dominguez Hills held on to all this land for so long.

Bridgeview, outside Chicago, saw a concert facility (Dallas and Colorado are also fitted with concert stages, IIRC) along with the soccer stadium, decided Chicago was underserved with outdoor facilities, and went for it despite the Fire offering to build it themselves.

The upcoming New York Red Bulls facility is more along the lines of what some of you have talked about. It's an urban redevelopment of an old brownfield site, with condos, motels, and something of an entertainment district surrounding the stadium. It also has an advantage over East Rutherford in that it's on a stop along one of the NY Port Authority train lines with access to New York City.

Speaking of brownfields, it's almost too bad there aren't any just-closing mines around downtown Portland AFAIK. Steeplechase can tell you something about Sunderland's Stadium of Light, which actually sits on an old mining area across the Wear River from downtown Sunderland. Unlike most English stadia, because of the brownfield designation of the site, the club got some public funding to help with construction.

I expect the investors to play city vs suburbs. I expect a lot of friction in that process in Portland IF this gets that far. It's a bit of a minefield, in reality... but it's also a game the suburbs can play.

The investors would be foolish not play the city vs. the burbs. In Oregon the burbs will win out and the "city" will again play second to Seattle (sorry, I meant third to Seattle and Vancouver) for Northwest prominence.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockstar:
The investors would be foolish not play the city vs. the burbs. In Oregon the burbs will win out and the "city" will again play second to Seattle (sorry, I meant third to Seattle and Vancouver) for Northwest prominence.

You are right. I am sure the burbs and city will be pitted against one another. that is just shrewd business.

As for NW prominence, that is subjective. I like PDX and all its weird glory.

I too, like PDX, but when you are looking at this site because you want MLB remember that all its weird glory will not achieve that. Your thinking, not to be abusive, is why PDX will not get MLB or any other "major sport".

http://www.oregonlive.com/timbers/oregonian/index.ssf?/...ml&coll=7&thispage=1

The silent entity- who, BTW, apparently owns "rights" to Portland now, is no longer silent. The former loud partner can't be found.

The suburban talk is making Timbers Army nervous. Reaction at:

http://www.soccercityusa.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1177964268/0

The story goes that once the owners group is known we can take the rumors very seriously. So I now really take us getting a MLS team very positively. Hopefully a solution for the Portland Beavers can be found.

If the Beavers can be moved and retain a positive cash flow and fan base, we should not look back.

BB

Interesting stuff.

I like how some of the same discussions re: stadiums are making the rounds over at soccercityusa.com.

Downtown stadium v suburbs? I suppose Hillsboro is possible, but my preference is PGE Park or Delta/Expo Center area.

I still can't get my head around this though because significant hurdles are faced with any of the options:

1. MLS & Beavers in PGE Park - I don't see how they can coexist, but maybe those creative Portlanders can figure out a workable solution.

2. MLS moves to another facility - where do they move, and how do they fund a stadium (especially one that will be occupied relatively few days per year)? Assuming we can't mirror the San Jose proposal up at the Expo Center, the next best alternative is Hillsboro which is kinda lame but could work I guess.

3. MLS stays in PGE, Beavers move to another facility (my dream scenario, if you built a great, expandable to MLB stadium near downtown) - how to fund a new AAA facility, and how to keep the city happy and whole when losing the revenue stream at PGE Park? I think it could be done with a combination of selling redevelopment dollars, creative financing, and political will, but the latter is in very short supply right now.

Or I suppose you let the Beavs go to Reno which would be terrible. I think a great downtown facility near the river (think Autozone Park in Memphis or Raley Field in Sac) would be a huge boost to the Beavers, to baseball in Portland, and to future MLB prospects, especially if the facility was MLB-upgradeable.

That reminds me to recheck down in Reno. There's legislation that may scuttle the state dollars set aside for that baseball stadium... and I know the Reno Livestock Events Center wants it to renovate a bit, add an ice plant, get a hockey team, and help Reno's Winter Olympic bid for x years down the road.

The city is playing this "co-exist" game either because (1) they don't know any better, or (2) they're posturing like usual. I wouldn't be surprised if both answers were correct.

I'm thinking of Columbus, where the state fairgrounds provided the land and Lamar Hunt provided his own money. They use Crew Stadium for the occasional concert, at least one US National Team game EVERY year, HS football, et cetera. MLS involves more owner contributions than most sports (and possibly even in real dollars).

BTW... Home Depot Center sells itself for about anything and everything: X-Games, several concerts, the Pros vs Joes TV show, the HS football championships this last year, Chivas USA games... and that's not including the rest of the complex. The pro lacrosse team actually plays at the track stadium and not the main stadium. There's actually a basketball court set up (and removable) in the new indoor velodrome. The tennis stadium, of course, removed the need for using Staples for an annual tournament.

Pizza Hut Park was partially funded by Frisco Independent School District, who uses the stadium for HS football.

Basic point- these stadia are used for more than three handfuls of games per year. They're small enough that they can get all sorts of business that doesn't want the big stadia, frankly.

THAT BEING SAID...

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2007/04/30/d...html?f=et80&hbx=e_du

Keston definitely intends to play Portland v Seattle. How much there is to play for... that's another matter.

The Portland vs Seattle argument for MLS is a stupid leveraging manuever. The correct answer is... both, or neither.

The new stadium should be in the CITY!

I mean just look at this clip of the Atmosphere of Toronto's games in the city. click here

MLS is far from Major League. What are you guys smoking? The Beavers aren't going anywhere. If the MLS wants in, they will have to coexist with the Beavers. Who btw, probably have larger salaries than MLS players. Why btw would Timber fans not want MLS since it is "Major League"? Probably because it isn't.

MLS is the top level in America. Soccer has a governing body that tends to look down on international league structures (at least ones they don't control directly), so it's not like there's going to be a "world league" anytime in our lifetimes. It is what it is for now... slowly growing, slowly becoming more profitable, and it's going to take a long time to get to the levels of other leagues in the world.

If MLS does come here, there will be no co-existence with the Beavers for more than one year. You can bank on that.

You mention salaries. Yes, American soccer players are mostly not overpaid. The cool thing is that MLS actually releases the numbers. I should note that the "developmental players" are usually under 21 and part of the youth development and reserve programs... that's why you see a lot of $12K numbers in the chart in the following link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/mls/longterm/2007/salaries_07.html

Could someone post Beavers salaries?

The attitude has changed with Timbers Army this year. Given the final realization that the Portland ownership is baseball-centric, I'd say a good portion of the fan base is now ready for a separation and MLS.

My argument has been that investors who get into MLS tend to be prepared to use their own money to fund stadia (at least a substantial percentage), so the minimum requirement they would ask of the city (or region) is free land. There might be a request upon the state to provide a similar deal for MLS that is provided for a potential MLB team (knowing that an MLS salary load is not near an MLB salary load), then if the investor can cover the difference, it's possible it might be a better deal than a Seattle suburb can offer. Then again, you never know when the state of Washington gets a wild streak going... while they aren't funding the Sonics arena, the Thunderbirds will be taken care of in Kent.