We'll use this morning's Oregonian article as the flashpoint.

http://www.oregonlive.com/timbers/oregonian/index.ssf?/...611133930.xml&coll=7

Portland could know MLS fate by fall

The soccer league needs applications by Oct. 15 from eight cities seeking the next two expansion franchises -Friday, August 01, 2008

BOAZ HERZOG

The Oregonian Staff

Portland might know as early as this fall if it will join Major League Soccer in 2011.

The league on Thursday announced the timeline for awarding its next two expansion franchises. Interested parties must apply by Oct. 15. Selections will be made either this year or in the first quarter of 2009, the league said.

The response by Merritt Paulson, who is leading the effort to bring top-tier soccer to Portland: We're going for it. Paulson owns the Portland Timbers and Portland Beavers minor league teams that play soccer and baseball, respectively, at PGE Park.

Portland is among eight cities in the United States and Canada seeking the two expansion slots. The other possible locations are Atlanta, Las Vegas, Montreal, a second team for New York, St. Louis, Ottawa and Vancouver, B.C. The 14-team league will grow to 15 with Seattle joining next season and to 16 in 2010 with the addition of Philadelphia.

"While I'm not a handicapper," Paulson said, "I have every confidence, should we meet the challenges with the city, that we'll get a team."

Portland offers a strong soccer history, an already passionate fan base and a natural rival for Seattle.

The main hurdle: Agreeing on a public-private partnership with city leaders that includes financing to upgrade PGE Park and build a new home for the Beavers. Paulson disclosed Thursday that East Portland's Lents Park, near Southeast 92nd Avenue and Holgate Boulevard, is the leading site to house the Beavers, a Triple A baseball team that would need to vacate PGE Park within five years of an MLS team starting to play there.

The price tag for the project is likely to top $100 million. It's a figure Paulson points out is a fraction of what other locales are spending to erect new professional sports facilities.

Paulson is willing to pay the $40 million MLS expansion fee. The city would need to shoulder the rest, about $30 million to bring the city-owned PGE Park up to MLS standards and $35 million for a new Beavers stadium, according to Paulson's estimates.

Portland State football would remain a tenant in the revamped PGE Park. The fate of the Timbers, who compete one notch below MLS in the United Soccer Leagues First Division, is unclear but the team would most likely not remain in Portland.

City leaders will weigh the project's costs against the economic benefits, which Paulson described as a "significant number" of new jobs as well as millions of dollars generated annually from increased consumer spending and new business investment. That's above and beyond the boost in pride and family entertainment options an MLS team would add, he said.

Paulson and his team of lobbyists have been visiting City Hall leaders in recent months to build support for his idea. The early response, he said, has been positive and open-minded.

Mayor-elect Sam Adams said he plans to meet with Paulson later this month to talk specifics.

"I'm excited at the prospects," Adams said. But he cautioned, "It's all about the details.

"There's a big potential upside with MLS, but we're going to make sure we do not have a repeat of the PGE Park fiasco."

The city was left with unpaid debts from the last time it entered into a stadium deal involving PGE Park, with the now-defunct Portland Family Entertainment. A subsequent owner of the Beavers and Timbers agreed to pay the city $667,000 to cover those debts.

"To the extent the enterprise can pay for itself, the better," Adams said. "We're not going to cut existing basic services to pay for a soccer team or any Triple A ballpark. We're just not going to do that."

One thing is clear to Paulson: Portland should act now if it wants MLS, rather than hope for future expansion by the league.

"I think it really does need to be one of these two," he said.

Boaz Herzog: 503-412-7072; boherzog@gmail.com

I know you're looking at Merritt Paulson declaring Lents the number 1 site and probably wretching.

Simple truth at this point- it's a compressed timeline. I thought MLS would wait until MLS Cup 2009 to make a decision, and they have a habit of slipping deadlines, but Paulson apparently thinks he has to press this case.

Really, he does. It's a good bet that one of Vancouver or Portland will end up in MLS in this round. If he doesn't win the expansion bid, then the Timbers are the lone USL-1 club west of the Mississippi. He'll have to buy and move an existing team (Chivas USA is underperforming off the field... they could be the target). Something HAS to happen, now.

The ballpark cost target tells me this will be constructed like Raley Field in West Sacramento, not Auto Zone in Memphis. An earthen construction is in order, for the most part, and an earthen exterior is likely. It likely will NOT translate into something that can be expanded for the majors, and it's a waste of time to try to find a site that would DOUBLE the cost of the project simply because Portland MIGHT get the majors.

This isn't the outcome you seek... but it's the precedent you want. After so many years of inaction by the city, it is believed that the likely agreement between the city and Paulson will have three votes on the council. This precedent gives you room to talk down the road.

Agreed!

I would much rather the Beavers home be at Blanchard (PPS Site) so that we are set for MLB, but baby steps are in order here.

A nice single A baseball park at Lents would be a nice upgrade to the current softball park currently there.

And if in one year the city does decide to spend the money on Blanchard then we are upgrading not downgrading.

Thank you Mr. Paulson for being that owner that I mentioned was the only missing piece a few years ago to get this concept moving again.

BB

Isn't building a minor league park at PPS a "baby step" in the right direction? If the city sinks $35 million into a ballpark at Lents, are they likely to spend another $35 million five or ten years from now when another round of expansion is possibile for MLB? We can't build a Single A park at Lents for a Triple A team.

If Lents is really the No. 1 site, I am afraid the city of Portland is ignoring a legitimate long-term plan for a short-term solution that will hurt us down the road. If the city won't pony up another $35 million (or whatever it takes to help) a few years from now for a downtown site, then we will have set the MLB2PDX movement back 'way too many years (IMO).

I understand your ideal steps here but I think the team setting this up is trying the doable (from their point of view at this time). As Mr. Paulson said, we have this one chance for MLS to PDX.

But hear me out: If the Lents facility is up to par for a practice facility and a Headquarters for a MLB team then the city is investing in a future MLB franchise plan. Blanchard isn't going anywhere at this point.

Just like the Blazers have a Tualatin practice facility, a MLB team will need same for their needs. Mr. Paulson leases or purchases the Lents facility as needed for the Beavers of the AAA and then when MLB understands the plan and wants to place a team in PDX, Blanchard becomes the Key. Lents Stadium shows MLB that Mr. Paulson and the City are serious.

I think the "baby steps" here is that we are working with what we have. Down the road, when MLB comes knocking and PDX Public Schools is ready, we then talk about a MLB ready stadium.

I also wonder if Lents could be used and designed for an amphitheater? With Clark County having issues with their amphitheater, we could have an in to the concerts that are not stopping in PDX.

Here is to MLS to PDX!!!

BB

They can put the minor league Beavers' park in Lents or Lincoln City for all I care--MLB is just not coming to PDX in the next 5, probably even 10-15 years...bring MLS here, and let the MLB (futures) chips fall where they may...I'm not trying to be blase about MLB (I'd prefer MLB over MLS), but I am verrrry excited about MLS possibly coming to PDX--I'm biased, but I just don't think MLS would have a more rabid, feverish market than Futbol City USA.

Geez, everything happens whenever I take a vacation.... I haven't really figured out how to deal with this, but I'm - not - happy.

Lents will truly be a disaster, and I honestly feel like they would be better off moving to Tucson Electric Park (soon to be vacated by the Sidewinders who are moving to Reno... and it's a great park, although not in the best part of town) rather than shell out $30-$40m for a stadium in Lents that nobody will go to. Tucson would love to have the Beavs and would help to save baseball (Cactus League and otherwise) in the Tucson area.

Seriously, I'm not kidding. Lents or any other non-downtown location will be the death knell for minor league baseball in Portland. Guaranteed (I don't have time to detail the reasons why at the moment). I thought Merritt was smarter than this, but if he's serious about Lents, I have to wonder. "Tail wagging dog" seems like an appropriate term here.

This is a train wreck in the making, and we can chalk it up to good old fashioned, back room politics. What's good for Randy Leonard is not necessarily good for the city.

Anyone living on the West side will be unable to visit the park except for Saturday night and Sunday afternoon. Light rail would take far too long, leaving West siders with the following treck: Highway 26---I-405---Banfield---I-205. Any (or all) of these freeways (goat trails) could be clogged up.

The attendance for the Beavs from last Thursday thru Sunday was 32,000 fans. Not bad for a city which Joe Buzas used to condemn as not a baseball town. People go to PGE Park because:
1) Easy MAX access.
2) Easy downtown access.
3) Historic old park.
4) Tradition.
5) Central location.

Lents has none of these things. What are fans supposed to do before and after the game? Go on a tour of local meth houses? Shop for used cars on 82nd? Get a tattoo? Get in a discussion with the local gentry about why finishing 8th grade is a good idea? This is arguably the worst location. Want to build a ballpark outside of the inner core? Build at the I-5---I-205 interchange in Tualatin. At least that way, most citizens would have to navigate 1 or 2 freeways as opposed to 3 or 4.

City government would be playing the fool to proceed. But as the saying goes: "A fool and his money will soon be parted."

Actually, Lents is too easy for fans to get to--I have long advocated an expandable AAA ballpark in Vernonia ...seriously, at least the Bevos will corner the all important Troutdale market if they erect a Lents park...Ok, in all seriousness, you are absolutely right CMM & CL (as a lifelong westsider that attends 1 Bevos game every year or so at the excellent downtown location, I probably would attend even less than that if our AAA team's location was deep in SE PDX [I don't think I've been to Lents in my life!])--I am just concerned w/trying to nab a MLS team; I realize a minor league baseball team does have some value to PDX; but for me, it has really no value compared to a MLS team, which is what I think/hope we will shoot for here in 2008.

quote:

Originally posted by James Stock:
Actually, Lents is too easy for fans to get to--I have long advocated an expandable AAA ballpark in Vernonia ...seriously, at least the Bevos will corner the all important Troutdale market if they erect a Lents park...Ok, in all seriousness, you are absolutely right CMM & CL (as a lifelong westsider that attends 1 Bevos game every year or so at the excellent downtown location, I probably would attend even less than that if our AAA team's location was deep in SE PDX [I don't think I've been to Lents in my life!])--I am just concerned w/trying to nab a MLS team; I realize a minor league baseball team does have some value to PDX; but for me, it has really no value compared to a MLS team, which is what I think/hope we will shoot for here in 2008.

Then they should just drop AAA and put a short season single A team (June 15-August 31, I believe) to compete with the Volcanoes and Emeralds. They'd save at least $10-$20m on construction costs, and Merritt could make a tidy profit selling the Beavers to someone who would put them in Tucson.

"Only two things come out of Tuscon, Arizona: steers and (bleep). I don't see any horns on your head, so you must be a (bleep)."

-----Lou Gossett Jr. (Sargeant Foley)
(An Officer And A Gentleman--1983)

Another site is identified here.

http://www.thebeenews.com/news/story.php?story_id=121772730204813300

After a correction over at soccercityusa.com, the site would be this...

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=2200+NW+Front+&ie=U...7466&z=15&iwloc=addr

Better or worse than Lents?

I'm not sure the Port still owns the entire parcel... and it's the Port, not the city.

"Don't you give up on me! I got nowhere else to go!"--Dickie Gere in Officer & A Gentleman

Too funny.

"What ya been doin' all yer life? Probably listening to Mick Jagger music and bad mouthin' yer country, I'll bet."

OK, so let's wrap it up.

1) John Vosmek provides the city with a well thought out and creative plan to turn the old barn into an MLB ready facility. The plan calls for 45 million to increase capacity to 30,000.

2) Marshall Glickman rides in on a white horse, sticks a knife in Vosmek's back, and promises Vera Katz the moon if she'll just hand over the cash.

3) Cigar smoked, back room deal is cut. Portland Family Entertainment takes over, seating capacity is dropped below 20,000, and the park plans for MLB renovation are now rendered obsolete.

4) PFE just can't seem to make that rent payment of $900,000.00. (give or take).

5) The Marshall Plan dies an ignominious death. Mr Glickman files for bankruptcy quicker than you can say: "Tinker to Evers to Chance." City is left holding the 35 million dollar bag.

6) A series of unmemorable owners come and go.

7) Portland get's a real owner. (thank you Merritt).

8) Only 20 million more needed for a "MLS ready" stadium. (20 million now, plus 35 million seven years ago so we can create an obsolete baseball park with not enough concessions or toilets, and a seating capacity at or below what it was 50 years ago. But look on the bright side: the ivy on the left field wall is really cool.

9) Randy Leonard decides that Lents can become The Pearl District if the city spends 35 million more to build an 8,000 seat ballpark approximately seven miles out side of downtown.

10) At this point, the city will have spent
nearly 90 million in order to lower the seating capacity of Civic, renovate a baseball park so they could re-revonate it to not be a baseball park so they could build an unnecessarily small baseball park approximately seven miles from the baseball park that we won't be able to play baseball in anymore.

10) Leave it to the city of Portland to spend 90 million for an ivy covered wall that will lkely need to be torn down.

Great summary (and movie quotes!) CMM--it absogilooly KILLED me when Katz/PDX (though she came around somewhat when we were vying for the Expos [too little, too late]) gave the brilliant, innovative, excting Vosmek plan the heave ho in favor of their backroom, slimy, smelly deal w/Marshall Glickman, who never exhibited one millionth of the class, vision, and accomplishments of his father Harry...

True enough. If the city had the foresight a decade ago, that 45 million would have been properly sepnt on increasing seating capacity, as well as structural and seismic improvements. We still likely would not have landed the X-poze, but we would be so much closer now to a functional MLB park.

The FUBAR that Katz and Co created a decade ago can not be undone. The concourse is so narrow now, (and the toilets so few) the park could never be made MLB ready.

Anyone in the private sector would have been fired for that botch job. Instead, Katz is immortalized with a statue of her goddess-ness down on the East Bank Esplanade.

Thus the term: "Close enough for government work."

Man, more and more every day, I sound like an angry middle aged white guy from the suburbs.

Here are some interesting statistics on AAA Attendance rankings:

Rank/City/Average annual attendance 2003-2007/Downtown stadium? (Yes/No)
1. Sacramento/762,909/Yes
2. Memphis/700,330/Yes
3. Round Rock/688,363/No
4. Louisville/652,030/Yes
5. Pawtucket/627,808/No
6. Buffalo/589,146/Yes
7. Albuquerque/579,548/Yes
8. Toledo/571,457/Yes
9. Indianapolis/565,318/Yes
10. Des Moines/538,344/Yes
11. Fresno/513,739/Yes
12. Durham/511,692/Yes
13. Columbus/504,047/No
14. Oklahoma City/492,488/Yes
15. Norfolk/480,340/Yes
16. Salt Lake City/459,136/Yes (sort of)
17. Rochester/451,485/Yes
18. Scranton/440,470/No
19. Nashville/416,245/No
20. Richmond/382,919/No
21. Portland/381,844/Yes (but in a multipurpose stadium)
22. Syracuse/366,285/No
23. New Orleans/355,221/No (and it was bad in the years before Katrina)
24. Las Vegas/340,938/No
25. Tacoma/326,431/No
26. Omaha/314,622/No
27. Charlotte/288,116/No
28. Tucson/284,561/No
29.Colorado Springs/252,996/No

Regarding the 14 stadiums which are not downtown:
3 (Columbus, Omaha, and Charlotte) are in various stages of building new downtown stadiums.
4 (Nashville, Las Vegas, Tacoma, and Colorado Springs) are under various forms of pressure to either move downtown or relocate (although none are imminent).
2 (Tucson and Richmond) are moving to mixed use developments (Tucson is moving to downtown Reno, and Richmond is moving to a wealthy suburb of Atlanta, home of the parent club).
3 (Scranton, Syracuse, and New Orleans) are drawing OK and/or are not in a feasible position to build or relocate.
2 (Pawtucket and Round Rock) have other factors (Pawtucket - rabid Red Sox fan base in the heart of Red Sox nation; Round Rock - great facility in wealthy suburb with easy access to Austin & San Antonio + Texas car culture) that help their attendance.

Portland, although downtown, has the only multipurpose facility in AAA.

Average attendance at downtown stadiums (including Portland) - 549,987
Average attendance at non-downtown stadiums - 399,216

Also, note that many of the successful downtown facilities (and the ones under construction) have similar demographics to Portland (1 million to 2 million population, at least one other "big 5" franchise): Sacramento, Memphis, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Raleigh/Durham, Columbus, Charlotte, Salt Lake City, even (gasp) Oklahoma City.

Successful single-purpose AAA facilities downtown are virtually guaranteed. Successful AAA facilities outside of downtown are doomed to fail unless there other unique overriding circumstances (Pawtucket and Round Rock - neither of which is like Lents in any way, shape, or form).

Lents would be a great spot to put a short season single A franchise... heck, they'd save the city $10-$20 million in construction costs if they built a stadium like the one in Salem-Keizer. But putting a AAA team out there will create another massive boondoggle for the city of Portland.

Hey Cactus, stats such as these are only interesting for baseball geeks like us.

Leaving aside the previously stated problems with the Lents site, the following is also troublesome: only 9000 seats.
Why problematic in Portland? Because Portland's average attendance is based on extreme highs and lows. July 4th drew 16,000. Several thirsty Thursday's a year have (or will) draw over 10,000. Some Saturday games will bust 10,000. We need those huge draws to make up for the April 17th's of the baseball season when the weather conditions are unbearable, and the actual number of fans in the seats is about 137.

Limiting the seating capacity to 9000 is not going to create the supply/demand reality that exists in MLB markets where artificial scarcity creates higher ticket prices. (The A's want to build a 33,000 seat park. What a joke. Ten years after the park is built, they'll be asking the locals for one hundred million more to increase seating capacity)

For the record: I think the Beavs are drawing better this year. Will be in teresting to see how it shakes out at year end. (Many home dates left this month to see the Beavs).

The problem at PGE Park is not size; it is intimacy. I love having a large seating capacity (19,566); if we had not had that, I doubt the MLB officials who visited us when the Expos were looking to move would have said, "We can work with this". They looked at Harbor Park in Norfolk and didn't say the same thing about their stadium.

The design of the stadium is flawed for baseball - but then, that wasn't what it was created for. The curve on the third base side was obviously designed as an "end zone", creating a huge gap between the third base line and the stands, but there isn't much other way to realign the field. On the first base side, the seats are much closer, but they are aligned for football, so that the seats down the line look directly toward the outfield, not toward the infield where a majority of the game takes place. It is the argument you get about any stadium created with a "dual purpose" in mind, such as the Metrodome: the sight lines aren't good for a baseball game.

Sure, we could build a "baseball only" stadium out at Lents, but I agree that 8-10,000 seats is too small for Triple A and the larger crowds we do sometimes have. And it would be awful for another major league exhibition game such as the ones we have hosted with the Mariners and Padres before. We could use a more baseball-friendly stadium, and getting MLS in here would give us a good excuse to do it, but location will be everything, both for a Triple A team and future expansion of a stadium for MLB - and Lents ain't it!

I don't have a problem with a 10,000 seat stadium (including berm seating). MiLB used to want them over 10k, but they are backing off from that. It doesn't make sense to spend the extra dough for a 15-20k stadium when it is only filled a few times a year, whereas (in theory) a smaller stadium will be near capacity at all times which makes staffing easier and ticket demand more consistent.

I just don't like the location, that's all. Sorry if my geeky stats turned everyone off. I have other graphs showing the relationship between population, stadium size, and AAA attendance, but I don't want to bore everyone to death. But my conclusions from that analysis:

1. population and stadium size don't matter (unless taken to an extreme, of course); and
2. stadium location is the primary factor that is statistically proven to affect attendance.

Nashville did their own study on this and calculated that a downtown AAA stadium boosts attendance by approximately 50%. I bet the difference with corporate support and revenue is about the same or more.

BC: I agree that the seating configuration at PGE is problematic. For the record, I never sit on the 3rd baseline for the reasons stated above. It feels a little like Oakland Alameda; way too much foul room. Problem is, the fair pole shifting in the new PGE configuration makes the seats more palatable for first base-liners, but brings the action that much farther away from folks behind the Beavs dug out. Either way you slice it, the park was not intended for baseball.

For years I have heard old-timers wax nostalgic about old Vaughn Street Stadium. (I believe 25th and Vaughn was the exact location. A plaque is still there designation the prior local) Pics of said park show an outfield fence built parallel to the streets beyond the bleachers. Somewhat similar to Shibe Park or Crosley Field. Apparently that park was very intimate and PGE/Civic was never able to recreate that feeling.

For me, the attachment to PGE is more personal. I grew up in Beaver-tropolis and spent many a Sunday afternoon between 1970 and 1972 at the park. Sundays frequently were double headers. (both games were seven innings, not nine) I was also a founding member of the Kurt Bavacqua Fanb Club. (When I was eight years old I had no car, so the fan club was a limited operation)

After 1972, the Beavs left town for Spokane, and for me, the place was never the same. Guess that's why I feel for those few Brooklyn Dodger and New York Giant fans still left out there.

If the Beavs leave PGE for good, I will miss the place for those nostalgic reasons. And if for no other reason, I will become an MLS fan.

BC: thought it was cool you went to Babe Ruth's house. And yet I wonder what the place feels like after that wretched attempt at a face lift in the mid '70's. The old pics of that great upper deck, the deep seats beyond shallow right field, and death valley in left-center always looked cool to me in the old pics. One of my favorite baseball pictures of all time is Gehrig's farewell address (July 4, 1939) That's a classic.

At least we all agree on one thing, AAA ball does not belong in Lents. Gentrification and urban renewal are biproducts of a beautiful new ball park. They are not, however the primary reason for building the ballpark in said location in the first place.

The Omaha Royals have bailed out of the downtown stadium plan.

http://omaha.com/index.php?u_page=2798&u_sid=10398800

Setting the stage for the inevitable move of the Cubs to Omaha.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Schmidt:
The Omaha Royals have bailed out of the downtown stadium plan.

http://omaha.com/index.php?u_page=2798&u_sid=10398800

1. They pulled out of the negotiations... I wouldn't say it's a done deal since no feasible alternatives exist (except maybe Tucson);
2. Omaha is a unique situation due to the College World Series (different revenue model and many of the prime dates are taken due to the CWS). Plus the market is far smaller and more sprawl-like. That's why I use Columbus and Charlotte as comparisons for downtown, not Omaha.

In other words, while this is a very interesting development, it says nothing to me about downtown AAA stadiums per se.

Not that anyone cares, but I made a mistake in my original analysis --- Pawtucket is a downtown stadium (I Googled it and talked to a guy who's actually been there).

quote:

Originally posted by The Cactus Leaguer:
Not that anyone cares, but I made a mistake in my original analysis --- Pawtucket is a downtown stadium (I Googled it and talked to a guy who's actually been there).

I care, thanks for all your analysis. It has been nice to have something worth reading on these boards. They have just been so dead.

Is there any current FUNDING effort centered on a downtown site? Is it working?

Omaha has a clear interest with CWS... but the Royals just bailed on it.

Miami and Orange Bowl (despite the renewed Miami Arena talk)? Fremont?

Anyone else? I'm pretty good with contrary evidence if someone finds it.

It might be time for a paradigm shift. I believe cities talk to each other (I think you know what I mean). In this economy, cities want downtown land to bring back tax revenue... including property tax (downtowns being generally immune to the current bubble burst). Sales taxes around stadia... they can have the annual festivals and gatherings do that (what, 70K at the Oregon Brewer's Festival in one day out of four?), and the city doesn't have to throw half a bill into it.

Then there's baseball's, well, "arrogance" about these matters, especially how they sold the Expos process. Heck, Oscar Goodman even ended up taking a shot at MLB IIRC.

I think baseball's being kicked out of downtown.

(Obviously, nobody's being kicked out of current digs. Just thinking the door's been closed on future endeavors.)

Update -

As much as I enjoy chatting with all of the gang at soccercityusa.com about the pros and cons of AAA baseball in Lents, I decided to go straight to the source (a source, anyway) and address my concerns.

For now, let me say this... it is extremely unlikely that another heretofore unnamed downtown site will become available for the Beavers (or the Timbers, for everyone who jumping on cpflyer's bandwagon).

Given that reality, I am now trying to explore the feasibility of having Portland dump AAA baseball entirely and moving to the short season single A league (where Salem, Eugene, etc. play, and where the Portland Rockies used to play). Here are the pros:

-The Lents location is clearly not capable of supporting AAA ball, but they are quite capable of supporting single A ball;
-The league only runs from June 15th-Labor Day, so no worries about empty seats or competing with the Blazers or Timbers during those April & May contests;
-Minor league is minor league... the Rockies drew the same (pre-remodel) at Civic/PGE as the Beavers do now;
-Lents still gets a nice shot in the arm, along with a vote from Commissioner Leonard;
-MP could sell the AAA rights to another owner in another city who actually aspires to be a AAA town;
-A nice little single A facility in Lents would actually be a plus, not a minus, if/when MLB comes knocking again in 10 years (most MLB teams have a single A team nearby... great for rehab assignments and broadening the fan base);
-The best part (as far as MLS goes), is that a single A stadium would be far, far cheaper to build, which would make the MLS bid much more palatable to city hall and taxpayers alike.

The cons?:
-How logistically difficult would it be to move from AAA to A ball? (this is what I'm trying to find out but I can't imagine it would be that tough as long as a buyer for the Beavs can be found)
-Would there be any stigma over losing the AAA franchise? (If I were MP I would retain the logo, mascot, etc., as that has no value in a different city)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Schmidt:
Is there any current FUNDING effort centered on a downtown site? Is it working?

Not sure what you mean here. Numerous AAA teams are moving downtown, or trying to.

quote:

Omaha has a clear interest with CWS... but the Royals just bailed on it.

Right. The CWS is moving to downtown Omaha. That's huge (for Omaha). As far as the AAA team goes, let's wait and see. They have other issues, such as scheduling conflicts with the CWS, so I don't think this is conclusive or indicative of anything.

quote:

Miami and Orange Bowl (despite the renewed Miami Arena talk)? Fremont?

Anyone else? I'm pretty good with contrary evidence if someone finds it.

Ummmm... those are the only teams left that need a new stadium. They tried going downtown, it was too expensive and/or politically challenging, so they bailed. Fremont is practically creating an entire city center from scratch, including Cisco Field. Miami is FUBAR and has been forever (praise God we didn't get them as owners).

quote:

It might be time for a paradigm shift. I believe cities talk to each other (I think you know what I mean). In this economy, cities want downtown land to bring back tax revenue... including property tax (downtowns being generally immune to the current bubble burst). Sales taxes around stadia... they can have the annual festivals and gatherings do that (what, 70K at the Oregon Brewer's Festival in one day out of four?), and the city doesn't have to throw half a bill into it.

If that's true, why do cities (including Portland) continue to throw up property tax abatements and URA's left and right?

I think the issues are twofold:

1. More competition for the land (i.e., the Homer Williamses are getting in on the action);
2. Taxpayer revolt in general which leads to more complex self funding mixed used development-type financing arrangements which are only possible with giant plots of pubicly owned land which are found less and less within the downtown core.

quote:

Then there's baseball's, well, "arrogance" about these matters, especially how they sold the Expos process. Heck, Oscar Goodman even ended up taking a shot at MLB IIRC.

True dat.

quote:

I think baseball's being kicked out of downtown.

(Obviously, nobody's being kicked out of current digs. Just thinking the door's been closed on future endeavors.)

Interesting points. Can't say I agree with the conclusions, but the dynamic is certainly shifting. Towards what, who knows.

Quick research on AAA ballparks.

The only franchise with a serious chance is Charlotte. Even that effort has pending litigation to fight, though it sounds probable. Charlotte is VERY business friendly.

Columbus and Reno are already under construction. My argument is that they slipped in just in time. Columbus had the luxury of siting right next to the NHL arena, and Reno is also business-friendly.

The only franchise "seeking" new downtown digs- Nashville. They've been back and forth with the city, and there's no sign of success down the road.

Meanwhile, Richmond is moving to an Atlanta suburb, and the old Ottawa franchise is now Lehigh Valley, essentially plotted in between the twin cores of Allentown and Bethlehem.

I'm not arguing intent here. It's success that matters. I think it's time for some serious rethink.

OK, let's try this again.

There are 29 other AAA teams.

15 have downtown digs and all are happy with them (even Buffalo with their oversized, pre-HOK era facility);

3 (Round Rock, Scranton, and Lehigh Valley) have strategically located suburban digs such that there is ample corporate and fan access in order to compete with a downtown facility. They are all happy in their present location. Let's call them "faux-downtown".

1 (Columbus) draws well, but they are still moving downtown. Ohio is sports crazed and more willing to fund stadia than other parts of the country (among the best minor league stadiums are Toledo, Akron, Lake County, and Dayton).

So that leaves 10 other suburban stadiums that draw poorly (Tucson, Syracuse, New Orleans, Charlotte, Colorado Springs, Richmond, Las Vegas, Nashville, Tacoma, and Omaha).

Two are moving downtown (Tucson to downtown Reno, and Charlotte).

One was moving downtown until negotiations broke down, and now they are completely up in the air (Omaha).

Two have nice, fairly new stadiums, they still draw poorly due to location, but they are in no position to move (Syracuse and New Orleans).

One is moving to a "faux downtown" facility in a metro area twice the size of Portland (Richmond to Gwinnett County, GA). Even though this is a superior setup compared to Lents, I predict that this facility will be marginally successful at best. Even the latest projections from their wildly optimistic consultants predict average attendance of 6,000 per game, which is less than the AAA average of 6,500 to 7,000.

The other four teams (CSprings, Vegas, Nashville, Tacoma) share the following characteristics:
* pre-HOK era stadia w/poor attendance
* at or near larger metro areas with plenty of entertainment options
* expressed a desire to move downtown or relocate
* do not have a good "faux downtown" option available
* aren't dumb enough to repeat another Lents-like option ("fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice,...")

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Schmidt:
I'm not arguing intent here. It's success that matters. I think it's time for some serious rethink.

As much as I love and admire Daaaaaaaave and his ilk, I agree with you for the most part and there is very little argument here. The real estate dynamics in every market are unique and fluid. Downtown is preferred. It's more difficult, but it's not "dead". To me the alternative is a "faux downtown" - either a large enough mixed use development to make it sustainable, or a perfect location (Round Rock, Lehigh Valley) with corporate and fan access that match downtown facilities. In fact, there probably WOULD be a downtown in those locations if the city planners weren't preventing it (If Portland had a westside bypass, I could see Hillsboro working as a faux downtown location - not gonna happen though).

The other alternative is simply changing the economic model in some way (smaller stadiums, lower attendance, lower costs, etc.).

Pawtucket may have a downtown stadium, but it's IN Pawtucket, which is actually a suburb (or "sister" city) to much larger Providence. It's about four miles from downtown Providence (sort of like building a stadium in "downtown Beaverton").

And personally, I would NOT be in favor of moving down from AAA to A ball if we don't have to:

1) The more dates PGE Park has events, the more the previous expenses of renovation can be justified and covered;

2) Triple A is better quality baseball than Single A, for obvious reasons;

3) Since I work there, 72 Triple A games is more than twice as beneficial to me financially than 36 Single A games!

Let's don't even go there. Remember, our ultimate goal is (or ought to be) to do whatever is best in trying to bring major laegue baseball to our city. If going down three levels (from AAA to AA to High A to short-season A) is going to help that final goal, I'd certainly support it, but I don't see how it would help.

A few thoughts:

1) Single A baseball is drek. They don't even know how to use wooden bats yet. During the Portland Rockies Administration, the ball rarely left the yard.

2) Losing AAA for the 3rd time in three decades would look horrible, regardless of the reasons.

3) Even I would take the road less travelled to Lents if it meant keeping AAA instead of A ball.

4) Comparing attendance per game in PDX:
(Single A verse AAA) isn't fair to the Beavs. We will never draw well before Memorial Day regardless of talent, winning record, etc.

5) Beaverton doesn't even have a downtown.

I give up. When Lents stadium is mired in the lower third of AAA attendance, don't say you weren't warned. I just hope and pray that the funding mechanism isn't tied to attendance. If it is, get ready for another public bailout.

-TCL

PS - I really hope I'm wrong.

Hey Cactus, I don't want it in Lents either. I think it's a moronic idea and completely motivated by the wrong reasons. All I'm saying is I can't handle single A, and I don't have the time or financial resources to go to Seattle except for a few games a year. At this point, all I can hope for is one of the following:

1) Lincoln High,
2) Pdx waterfront north of Broadway Bridge.
3) Anything near Consolidated in NW Pdx?
4) Any land North of Vaughn St near old park?

I'll take anything, anything at all except for more Single A.

http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/li...ress-conference.html

Live blog covering press conference about to start at PGE Park.