Link to Las Vegas Sun article

Baseball talk takes public hit from Wynn

By Ron Kantowski
Las Vegas Sun sports writer.
February 23, 2005

On Jan. 5, Mayor Oscar Goodman told reporters that he hoped to make an announcement about a Major League Baseball team coming to Las Vegas "within the next month."

I guessed I missed it.

Then last week, Steve Wynn went on TV to tell Las Vegas ONE's Jon Ralston about myriad things one can see while standing at the top of his 50-story megaresort going up on the Strip, one of which is that Major League Baseball probably isn't coming to town anytime soon. Or ever.

Suddenly, it's as if that dog and pony show at the MLB meetings in December, where all those baseball people told Mayor Goodman all those things he wanted to hear about our city's viability as a major league city, never happened.

Perhaps it's time to load up the showgirls and head off to spring training for confirmation, because any momentum about baseball and Las Vegas seems to be stranded at first base. Or in the on-deck circle.

Wynn's comments on "Face to Face," while not surprising, still came off as a nasty curveball to anybody foolish enough to believe baseball is coming sooner than later.

"Probably not," Wynn said when Ralston asked about Las Vegas and big-league sports.

"This is a city that is very unique in the sense that it is entertainment overload and this entertainment is paid for by all the same people who pay the taxes, the gaming industry with the convention bureau's room tax. Unless the gaming industry supported it (it won't happen), because you know you need to spend a lot of money."

Well, with his new place getting ready to shoot off some fireworks, Wynn is back front and center in the gaming industry and he obviously doesn't think much of Las Vegas as a baseball town. While he doesn't speak for everybody in his business, he's the only one talking.

But I'm not the only one listening.

Even one of the city's biggest baseball proponents says Wynn's views aren't exactly coming out of left field.

"Nobody has been as instrumental as him as creating what's here," said Las Vegas 51s president Don Logan, who along with the eternally optimistic Goodman, are still the closest thing the baseball project has to front men. "Some of his points are valid, especially in terms of competition for entertainment."

As far as expressing his skepticism for baseball, Wynn indicated he isn't alone among the gaming moguls. Just first. So call him early Wynn.

"All these cities that have sports, they build a venue, they build a stadium or an arena, because they need it to bring people to the city," Wynn told Ralston. "We have all the people (already) coming here, too many as a matter of fact in some people's view.

"So that the fellows who would have to pay for it, the business community, they don't think we need this. They think there are other things that are more important and they may be right."

Don't be alarmed by that loud whirring sound. It's just Wynn sawing off the bat in Mayor Goodman's hands.

Logan said that while he can't argue with Wynn's business acumen, perhaps he's a little premature in thinking that major league baseball and the gaming industry couldn't co-exist or even benefit one another.

He talked about a major league franchise attracting big business, maybe even the diversified kind we don't have now, and while agreeing that there is plenty to do in Las Vegas without major league sports, he said that also is the case in New York City.

"There's plenty going on in New York and they've got more (pro sports) than anybody," Logan said.

So what appears to be happening is that the movers and shakers on the local baseball scene, or at least the few guys talking about it, are on opposite ends of the dugout. If Las Vegas learned anything from the long and contentious process that at long last transformed the forlorn Montreal Expos into the Washington Nationals, it's that everybody needs to pull together to make it happen. Here, we seem closer to a tug of war.

As Ben Grove of the Sun's Washington Bureau recently wrote, "Baseball doesn't have much patience for bickering among the city officials who are supposed to be selling the league on a pitch."

So far, we can't even get the guys on the same team to agree on which pitch to throw. The mayor wants a commitment from Major League Baseball before building a stadium. And he's adamant that if it happens, the ballpark will be built downtown on those 61 acres where, amazingly, tumbleweeds still flourish.

Logan believes if Las Vegas is serious about attracting a major league team, it needs to get started now by building a new stadium for the Triple-A 51s, which would then be converted into Goodman Yards when the time comes.

He talked about cities such as Portland being much better positioned than Las Vegas, in that it already has committed $200 million toward a new stadium and has an old one that seats 40,000 that could be used as a temporary home for a displaced major league team.

That's a lot more than we have.

Mayor Goodman has done a wonderful job in creating the perception that Las Vegas is ready for Major League Baseball. Heck, six weeks ago, he even had me drinking the Kool-Aid. But today, one might argue that we are no more ready for major league baseball than Clint Hurdle was when Sports Illustrated put him on the cover in 1978 and proclaimed him the next Mickey Mantle.

Other than the number of teams that will use Las Vegas as leverage to get a new stadium deal -- most recently it was the Marlins -- what really has changed around here?

Apparently, not much.

"We're not even in the game," Logan said.

Reach Ron Kantowski at ron@lasvegassun.com or (702) 259-4088.

(addrd font stylings and reformatted) - maury

quote:

"There's plenty going on in New York and they've got more (pro sports) than anybody," Logan said.

That's hilarious.

The reason that there's more pro-sports in NY than anyone is that it's the largest market in the US.

Vegas? A blip by comparison.

quote:

He talked about cities such as Portland being much better positioned than Las Vegas, in that it already has committed $200 million toward a new stadium and has an old one that seats 40,000 that could be used as a temporary home for a displaced major league team.

As a clarification, the new venue would be 38,000. PGE Park (the interim facility) would be expanded to 25,000.

I was in Vegas a couple weekends ago.

I went to a hockey game. The Wranglers play at the Orleans, who has built one of those arenas designed mostly for concerts, but smartly fits hockey in well. (It's a bit like both Spokane's old arena and Spokane's new arena, really) This is the kind of thing the casinos on the Strip, or even off the strip and away from downtown, is looking for. The Orleans is west of I-15 by about a mile or so (the Strip just east of I-15).

A baseball stadium is a little big for the kinds of things the casinos want to sponsor. Baseball lasts a bit too long for the casinos, for that matter. Moreover, I think the state won't let anyone put slots and tables in the arena area- 'twas a long walk from the casino (including a couple people movers installed in the walkway) to the turnstiles. They don't want the kids involved, among other things.

Land, for that matter, is becoming a premium out there, such that the area between downtown and I-15 is the only quality location remaining. The big casinos aren't downtown. This doesn't benefit them enough. I'd get a kick out of walking from Fremont Street to that plot for a game... and that bugs the Strip.

It's amazing that a city with the size and profile of Vegas has as little pro sports as it does, which is nada...Vegas continues to grow like wildfire, and is roughly the size PDX was in the 90s...and yet, the lead story in the city's fishwrap is often the result of their Arena Football League team's game...makes you appreciate having the NBA, though MLB would obviously be a kajillion time better...Vegas is certainly ripe for a major league team; I just want it to be NBA or pro hockey, not MLB...

quote:

Originally posted by Him:
It's amazing that a city with the size and profile of Vegas has as little pro sports as it does, which is nada...Vegas continues to grow like wildfire, and is roughly the size PDX was in the 90s.

Actually you'd have to go back to 1980's before the Portland metro was the same size that Vegas is now, or even farther if you look at the TV market. Remember, once you get beyond Vegas metro, the population is basically zero. Get beyond Portland metro and you still have significant population in the Willamette Valley, Central Oregon, the coast, etc.

Although, to be fair, if Vegas keeps growing at the same clip, it could hit 3 million next decade, and it's the future that counts, not the past.

quote:

Originally posted by The Cactus Leaguer:
Remember, once you get beyond Vegas metro, the population is basically zero.

You can't substantiate that. I think, if you look north of there a click, there are possibly untold numbers. They may be Sasquatch, Martians, Cylons, Stormtroopers, Bermuda Triangle victims, Jimmy Hoffa, and Richard Dreyfus, but the truth is out there.

quote:

Originally posted by The Cactus Leaguer: Get beyond Portland metro and you still have significant population in the Willamette Valley, Central Oregon, the coast, etc.

The coast and Central Oregon aren't nearly as substantial as the Willamette Valley... though Central Oregon's growth rate is at least a substantial fraction of the Vegas growth rate.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Schmidt:
The coast and Central Oregon aren't nearly as substantial as the Willamette Valley...

Did you think I was implying that? I meant that those three areas are substantial in comparison to the areas outside of Vegas metro.

TCL: Vegas' current population: 1.6 or 1.7 million...PDX's 1990 census population: 1.5 mill

This is not central to the discussion but for the record, per US Census Data, PDX metro's population was 1.8 million in 1990.

Sorry TCL, you are incorrect. The U.S. Census' own website lists the 1990 Portland-Vancouver CMSA population at 1,477,895

That's because you are looking at PDX-Vanc PMSA, not PDX/Vanc/Salem CMSA:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab01.xls

Before we nitpick this boring discussion any further, my point is simply that if you were to draw a 1 hour driving radius around downtown PDX in the 80's, it would be roughly equivalent to the same driving radius around Vegas today.

Sorry TCL, but I'm looking at the Portland/Vancouver CMSA (not PMSA as you stated) for 1990

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=30000US6442&-qr_name=DEC_1990_STF1_DP1&-ds_name=D&-lang=en

Salem wasn't included in the CMSA in 1990, methinks...

Apologies to everyone who has wasted 5-10 minutes of their lives by reading this thread which is meaningless within the larger context of MLB2PDX...

Him - I don't know if you bothered to look at the link I posted, but yes, it was in the context of the 2000 CMSA definitions. They were revised in the 90's, they have been revised since 2000, and I'm sure they'll be revised again in the future.

If you want to go by the 1990 definitions, that's fine. It does nothing to detract from my original point. The 1990 definitions also cause the 1990 population of Las Vegas metro to decrease by about 11%, so it isn't a stretch for me to say that PDX metro in the 80's (1989?) was roughly equivalent to Vegas metro today --- although we all know that the gap is narrowing.

My personal opinion? Salem should count. I know several people who choose to commute to PDX from the Salem area. If anything, it's easier to commute to/from Salem during rush hour, compared to Vancouver.

quote:

If anything, it's easier to commute to/from Salem during rush hour, compared to Vancouver.

That's actually true! Or at least it feels true. Driving down I-5 past Wilsonville still feels faster than sitting on the I-5 Bridge.

To not factor in Salem into the conversation is skewing the market improperly.

To really do this properly, there should be an attempt to count population within a 50-60 mile radius.

That would place Longview in the mix as well.

That's the issue with Vegas... nothing but scrub brush once out of the city.

TCL, easy there, Amigo--I'm your friend out here...don't get mad at me just because there's nothing going on on this board...I agree Salem should be factored in, all I was saying was that in the year 1990 AD, it wasn't...now it is, as it should be...if someone says something I said was wrong, when I know it was correct, I feel compelled to respond, that's all--nothing personal--yes, I realize these are mundane matters, but still as a matter of record...BTW, one of the things PDX will have to overcome is that, per sports team, it's actually smaller than Vegas--Vegas is 1.6-1.7 mill at the moment (with zero major league competition for a MLB team), and PDX, if it had MLB, would have a major league team for every 1.25 million people (2.5 mill divided by 2 major league teams)...

True about the per population by franchise...

Now, let's look at the DMA.

Him - it's cool, I'm not upset at all, sorry if you thought I was.