Thought you guys might find this interesting.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/10/SP169755.DTL

Whattya think?

The A's may stay in the bay area, but I doubt Santa Clara will get the team. The same can be said for San Jose. There are other viable locations within the bay area that would not violate the Giants territorial rights. I think that this is a MAKE OR BREAK year for the A's. If Oakland A's fans can improve the attendance, it might be enough momentum for a new stadium. Much like Seattle in 1995. I cannot help but wonder why Paul Allen is interested in broadcasting A's games. Portland traditionally has been a Giants/Mariners town. I truly believe that Paul Allen may be considering buying the franchise. I gaurantee the thought is crossing his mind. Especially with a new network..and no programming to fill it !

i agree sherwood matt, it probably is an experiment by allen to test the waters, like his exhibition NHL games. i also agree this next year or two will decide the A's fate longterm.

Isn't Santa Clara old news?

Not going to happen. The Commish has made his ruling, so like it or not, the Giants own the South Bay. You could see the Sacramento A's or the Portland A's, but not the Santa Clara A's. End of story. Columnists have every right to not like this, but it is the way the baseball bounces.

As for Allen testing the waters, I think he very well might be. But there seems to be a growing fan base in Oakland for the team, with building excitement as the team improves, and rumors that Mayor Brown will be getting involved in a downtown park. So they have a better-than-even chance of staying put, IMHO.

As cool as it would be to get a contender to move to Portland, I would hate to see a loyal and growing (if not yet huge) fan base lose their team. Better, I think, to move the Devil Rays, Twins or Expos if any club is to be moved.

New Yorker: "I would hate to see a loyal and growing (if not yet huge) fan base lose their team"....as you said, they may well NOT lose the A's, but even if they do, there is another MLB team 8 (!) miles away from the Oakland Coliseum--not to mention the fact the Bay Area is also home to 2 NFL teams, NHL and NBA teams, and major college programs, including 2 Pac10 universities...we have 1 major league team, in the increasingly popularity-challenged NBA, with the nearest MLB team residing 174 miles to the north...the A's leaving the Bay Area would create such a small blip on the Bay Area radar screen--they simply have sooo many other entertainment/sports options--it'd be a little like the Clippers leaving LA--to be fair, Bay Area residents are more attached to the A's than Angelenos to the Clippers, but you get the idea...I wouldn't like to see the A's leave California, I'd LOVE it!...the Bay Area, passionate about the 49ers and apparently now the Giants, but never for the A's, would take about a nanosecond to recover from an A's move...if Portland had acquired, say, the NFL Browns, from Cleveland, then yes, I might feel a little guilty/sorry for the fans there, but an Oakland A's move from the Bay Area is such a very, very different situation.

A MLB team will be ours--oh yes-- it will be ours

Isn't Santa Clara old news?
Not going to happen. The Commish has made his ruling, so like it or not, the Giants own the South Bay. You could see the Sacramento A's or the Portland A's, but not the Santa Clara A's. End of story. Columnists have every right to not like this, but it is the way the baseball bounces.

NYer, you make some good points, but don't forget you said "the Commish". This guy can change his views a hundred times in the next minute. This is the same guy who mentioned a few weeks ago, the word "contraction".

BTW I feel contraction will never happen, but the point is, Bud, actually said he was open to it. I'm not saying Bud will never let the A's move to the South Bay, but don't be surprised if he changes his mind. So I would never say "End of Story".

I don't know about that.

Yes, he has left many doors open in the past, but he's been pretty consistant. I can't think of many times when he's made a ruling and then reversed it.

The closest that comes to mind is saying that he would try to keep all the teams where they are and a year later saying that some teams may indeed have to move. Not quite the same thing.

Yes, he could change his mind. But I really doubt it.

You have to realize Bud likes to talk out of both sides of his mouth. And the next few years, are going to be a very interesting time in MLB, and depending on what happens in the next CBA, I won't rule any possibility out, including the A's moving to Santa Clara/San Jose.

I think a bigger problem with Santa Clara than the Giants crying over territory rights, is the ability of the city councils down there, finding a way to pay for the stadium. Forget about territory rights, you know how long it takes to get ballparks built. And I'm talking about the years before a shovel is even in the ground. Just ask the Giants themselves, or the Brewers, Pirates, Phillies, Padres, Marlins, etc.

If Santa Clara or San Jose, can't give the A's a "sweetheart deal" on a ballpark, the point is mute, regardless of the territorial rights. That's the hardest part of the whole deal, the Giants crying, can be worked out, if needed.

But like I said, the next few years will be very interesting, to say the least.

Oh, come now, Senator. I have come to like you very much and I respect your views, but if you're going to sling mud, I would ask you to back up the charges.

I need some examples of the Commish "talk(ing) out of both sides of his mouth." Not acknowledging the fact that the idea of contraction is out there while saying that he doesn't favor it- that is no contradiction. Neither is saying that he wants to keep all teams in their current cities and years later, after some bruising public battles, admitting that he might not be able to keep all teams put.

Please state specific incidents where Bud said one thing and did another. Why do you find him untrustworthy?

As for the A's, this seems to me to be a little like the NYC of the 1950s and 1960s. Just because there are many teams in an area doesn't mean that the fans don't love their club. The A's fans who grew up watching Rollie Fingers pitch shouldn't have to swith to the Giants any more than Dodgers fans should have had to switch to the Yankees (as MLB found out, they didn't. They just dropped the sport altogether).

A's fans are paying right now for a previous city administration being willing to push them around in favor of the Raiders. If this new administration wants to undo that damage, I say more power to them.

I should admit that I have no great love for Bud Selig. I think his time as Commish has been mixed. I have also met him on a couple of occassions, and didn't really care for him. I do believe him, however, to be an essentially decent man who honestly cares very much for the game and does what he thinks is best for the game at all times.

I will agree with you on the difficulty of getting a stadium together. That issue is, after all, still befuddling the Twins after years of trying. This is why I think getting the stadium issue at least partially settled (such as the money and the location if nothing else) is crucial to the effort.

Any team that relocates will do so because they couldn't get a new stadium where they were. They aren't going to go anywhere where they might have to fight that battle all over again.

New Yorker: I will agree with you on the difficulty of getting a stadium together. That issue is, after all, still befuddling the Twins after years of trying.

This is a special case. If anyone can afford to build his own stadium, it's Pohlad. Yet he fields one of the lowest paid teams in the league and concocts all these stupid "tricks" to deceive Minnesotans into thinking he's selling the team to someone in Charlotte. The Twins might have been more successful if they had an honest owner willing to do his share

Portland in the National League.

Okay, I'll admit that the Twins aren't the best example I could have chosen, for all the secondary issues clouding them (and most of which seem to revolve around that $#@%$! Pohlad).

But I still think that the city will have to have at least the basics of a plan in place.

If we cannot show a ballclub that Portland is ready to go ahead with a ballpark, why should the club come here?

I'll give an example of Bud saying something. And I didn't mean saying one thing and doing another, more like saying something to one team and saying the opposite to another team, talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Do you ever visit Fanhome.com, we've talked about this over there. It's been printed and you've read where Bud said he believes San Jose is the Giants territory and will not allow the A's to move there.

Earlier this year, or the end of last year, Bud stated publicly, that baseball can and will return to DC one day. He said nothing about Pete having the ability to block a team from moving to DC one bit. And he was talking about DC, not Northern Virgina, which is even closer to Baltimore.

So on one hand he says the Giants can block the A's possible move to San Jose, but the Orioles can not block a move of a team, even an AL one, to Washington D.C.

I respect you too NYer, and I'm not trying to mudsling at all. I'm just pointing out different things Bud has been saying. Bud is going into uncharted waters, the disparity is getting worse by the second. Things, and views will change.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree that Bud will not let the A's move to the South Bay. And as a side note, the Giants only gained the San Jose area as their territory in 1990, when they threatened to move there.

It's not like they moved from the Polo Grounds and San Jose was a part their turf all along. So just as the Giants can easily say that's been their turf for a whole 11 years, I feel it could just as easily be taken away.

The Giants of course will do anything to get the A's to leave the entire Bay Area, they want "the market" all to themselves, that's just the nature of any business.

Now maybe if the Giants had the San Jose area since they moved from New York, I might say, well then maybe that is their territory, but come on, 11 years, and it was only because of a threat to move there, who's kidding who here. Up until 1990 San Jose was neutral, and even since then and now, people consider it neutral.

For all I know, the "sweetheart" stadium deal might never materialize in the South Bay, and people will blame the A's not wanting to move there on the territorial rights, when it was really the city councils of San Jose or Santa Clara.

I've stated numerous times, I would love for the A's to build a new ballpark on Laney College, in downtown Oakland, a spot Mayor Brown mentioned, the only thing is the city of Oakland coming up with the money to pay for it.

I'm not saying Bud is untrustworthy at all. I'm just saying he is human, and humans can and will change their minds. Bud said he will try and help the A's build a new ballpark in Oakland. It's obvious by that statement he wants the A's to stay in the Bay area. And if things don't materialize there, he might help the A's move to San Jose/Santa Clara, keeping them in the Bay area, who knows.

PacBell to the Coliseum, 10 miles as the crow flies

PacBell to San Jose, 40 miles as the crow flies, Bud says no ballpark

Camden Yards to Downtown DC, 35 miles as the crow flies, Bud says no problem, even for an AL team

And if you want to know where I'm getting these DC comments from Bud, remember when Bud testified in front of one of the senate sub committees a few months ago about baseball, someone from the Washington Post or Times, asked him about baseball returning to the nation's capital, and that's when he said he has no problems with it. If you search the Fanhome archives, you can read about what he said.

[This message was edited by Harrisburg Senator on MAR-13-01 at 08:33 PM.]

Well, I'm not sure that they're quite the same thing. Angelos has publicly speculated on the amount of money that it would take for the Orioles to cede the territorial rights to DC (in a nutshell, a bunch). This is a little different from the "no way, no how" Giants.

And Angelos' hypocricy- the Senators yielded their territorial rights in allowing the Browns to move from St. Louis.

But still, there's room for a gentlemen's agreement here.

Like I said before, maybe Bud is saying no on South Bay now, so, like he said, can try and work things out in Oakland for a new ballpark there. And if things don't pan out and Bud still wants the A's to stay in the bay area, don't be surprised if he says well, now it's OK to look into Santa Clara/San Jose.

And still this might not keep them in the Bay, if they can't get a good stadium deal down there.

The only way the Oakland A's stay in Oakland is if the city comes up with a deal that works for all parties. Oakland does not want to go out of its way to help any major sports teams, as they recently rebuilt entirely the Warriors arena and of course the major football retrofit of the coliseum for the Raiders. A near-downtown location is the only place in the bay area the A's will move to. There is a solid Laney College site being tossed around more now, but that depends heavily on city involvement b/c it's a city college district site, etc. There is room and the neighborhood is perfect for redevelopment.

If the A's don't get a downtown Oakland park, they will be moved to Portland the next day.

The santa clara/san jose talk is entirely unlikely. The Giants AAA team is in San Jose. This affects their "territorial rights" as well. Primarily however it is the expensive property and lack of reasonable transit options that makes the south bay unattractive. The population is large but spread out and that is primarily why there is only an NHL team in the so.bay. They can't support MLB in the south bay alone. Oakland has and can.

The Giants AAA team is in San Jose.

Actually the San Jose Giants are a High A team in the California League. From 1962 to 1985 the San Jose ball club was affiliated with four teams: California Angles, Kansas City Royals, Montreal Expos and Seattle Mariners.

In the 1988 the San Francisco Giants came to San Jose with their Class-A affiliate. The AAA affiliate for the Giants are the Fresno Grizzlies.

sorry my mistake. either way, the san jose giants are the GIANTS. san jose sucks anyway. it's not a city, it's a huge suburb.

if the A's do as well as expected this season then it will be pushing the hand of the owners. it is a misconception that an excellent season will prevent a move. a world series season will speed up the process b/c out of town buyers will be more eager to snatch up a championship caliber team than a somewhat mediocre or really lousy one. also, if the city and the owners can't get a park deal after the team is in the series they will never get it done.

Giambi will be signed most likely this week. Once that happens you will hear more rumors about buyers, b/c having superstars signed for the long term increases the teams value.

I guess some of you are underestimating San Jose or the San Jose area as potential MLB relocation spots. San Jose is quickly approaching 1,000,000 people. Santa Clara county is well over 1.6 million. There are more millionaires per capita in the Silicon Valley than anywhere else on Earth. Something like 30 new millionaires made every day, I can't recall the exact figure. It's 50 miles from San Francisco, while Oakland (pop. 400,000) is but 10 miles from downtown SF. San Jose/Santa Clara county has some things going for it.

It's understandable to brush them aside because San Jose clashes with our hopes of getting a team, but San Jose/Santa Clara county is legit. And if you think it's just a suburb of San Francisco, you've never been there.

Cake, I don't think that we are underestimating SJ/SC...their status as one of the wealthiest areas in the world is well known and well documented. They are also the fastest growing area in the ALWAYS growing State of California, aren't they? IF the A's don't leave the Bay Area and if they don't stay in Oakland, it's a NO BRAINER that they get as close to Santa Clara County (e.g.- in South Fremont) as possible if they aren't allowed to go to the County itself either within San Jose or not.

When lastexit uses the term "suburb," I don't think he means that it IS a suburb, I think he means that it FEELS like a suburb. I think most people in that area would agree with that observation. That area has very little ambience as an urban area, save for downtown SJ itself, and it has an atmosphere of being a suburb.

Back to my first paragraph regarding San Jose's wealth...

Cake, your profile says you are from San Francisco; what area exactly...The City itself? Anyway, what's the perception down there in the Bay Area with the slump of the hi-tech industries and, especially, what's the perception about the slump in the stock market(s) (especially the Tech heavy NASDAQ) and how is that affecting things in the Valley? The real hits the economy is taking seems to be hitting hi-tech especially hard, with Stock Stalwarts such as Cisco Systems even taking a beating? Certainly all of this is affecting the Valley's renowned wealth...

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Pokey (aka: Tim Marttala)
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