Here is a pretty good test. Why don't we contact the Mayors and the Communities of the Expos, Marlins, Devil Rays, Twins, and Athletics and find out #1 – What their attitude is regarding the teams departure. #2 – How long they stayed. #3 – Why they left. #4 – Could the conditions leading up to their departure (or desire to leave) could occur here in Portland. Sort of like a "List of Job References."

I don't know but it seems by your flood or replies you are really anxious and huffy puffy to "tag" this on us here in Portland.

Halohawk I think could answer how long they have been in each city.

Mike, I like the idea of references from other cities. I don't think we are being huffy and puffy. We are just very endeared to the idea of a MLB team in Portland.

Conversation is a good thing.

quote:

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don't know but it seems by your flood or replies you are really anxious and huffy puffy to "tag" this on us here in Portland.

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No, it seems that the word is getting passed around to come here and address issues. I think that's great. I believe that there are people out there that may not know some of the facts regarding MLB to Portland. People will always ere on the side of raw emotion if they feel it's going to burn them. I understand that, and it's my job to remove that paranoia and fear.

Maybe we need clarity here Mike on your questions...

Do you mean?

#1 - What do these people think about the idea of a team leaving their city?
#2 - The duration of the team in said city?
#3 - (Not sure what this means) To address this question outright, no team has moved in 30 years.
#4 - Ask those cities if they feel it could happen here?

Like I said, no team has moved in 30 years, so some of these questions may or may not be relevant.

"PLAY BALL!"

(fixed double negative - Maury)

[This message was edited by Maury on June 04, 2003 at 10:47 AM.]

What I am saying is pretty simple. If the Trailblazers left Portland, Oregon, I would assume it was for a pretty good reason. It would also probably leave the Portland Economy further in the Toilet with two empty buildings The Rose Quarter and the Memorial Coliseum not to mention the loss of tax dollars from wages, salaries, and on down the line.

What I am asking is can you provide us with a "Report Card" and #1 Why the specific teams are leaving their respective cities. #2 If these teams have so much "Ants in their Pants" to move when things suck, what is to say that the team will not leave Portland when things suck here? Please walk us through this.

Someone famous once said, "For every action there is an opposite reaction" If a team moves you leave a vacancy somewhere in some town. What exactly is being done with the stadium that you are going to leave vacant by moving a team to Portland. What is being done to supplement the economy now that you have taken all the tax dollars and displaced them to Portland? Who pays for that supplementation? Remember – there is no free lunch!

I am looking down the line here. What you do in the city you take the team from now we can expect to occur when you move the team in the future. We are sick of holding the bag on these failed projects or projects that do not quite meet up to everyone's forecasts.

REGARDING THE TEAM STAYING IN PORTLAND
---------------------------
Mike one of the many safeguards within HB3606 is that the team owner must agree to stay in Portland for a 30 year lease.
http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com/hb3606.htm


Is this the norm? Will a owner agree to it?
Here is a list of the current lease agreements around the league:
http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com/lease.htm

Hope that helps.

As to #1 - Only one team is being offered to relocate and that is the Montreal Expos. The others are candidates that may or may not be in this situation.

None of them have "Ants in their pants" to move that I have seen. Tampa Bay is protected by a 30-year lease. They would not be moved unless someone bought the lease out.

The "opposite reaction" in other pro sports has been this...

An expansion team moves in to fill the void. This has happened in all pro-sports with Washington, DC (MLB) and LA (NFL) the exceptions.

The "holding the bag" scenario you mention is a minimum of 30 years down the line, and then can be extended.

Do you think the Blazers are going to move?

This is the largest sports market in America with only one team. Portland's size now is larger than Denver is when it had 4 teams.

As to the bag holding...

What bag exactly are you now holding now? Since we're both taxpayers, and I'm not holding anything currently, I'd like to be educated on this one. The only thing I'm left holding the bag on is Multnomah County public schools, and I agreed with it because it was the right thing to do.

"PLAY BALL!"

Mike G. make sure and look at those links that smokegecko provided.

"PLAY BALL!"

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Greene:

I am looking down the line here. What you do in the city you take the team from now we can expect to occur when you move the team in the future. We are sick of holding the bag on these failed projects or projects that do not quite meet up to everyone's forecasts.

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If they had neglected to put in the 30 year "no relocation" guarantee, then I would have had the same reservations that you have now.

Mike Greene, why don't you and Mr Gorecki and all of the other people sign up so you can be regular contributors?

I love MLB! Bring it to Portland and I will definately come to Portland as opposed to Seattle. I used to live i nSeattle and Safeco Field and the MAriners have been an economic boon to the community! Keep up all of your hard work guys! By the way, I emailed a bunch of your senators and forwarded them comprehensive positive economic impact studies about bringing MLB to your community.

Welcome Bob!

If you have any friends that would also drive or take the train down to Portland PLEASE have them e-mail the Oreon Senators also! That would be a HUGE help!

--Red Sox Fan--

Welcome Bob!

Nice to see another Washingtonian that thinks like I do.... Enjoy the site and post as often as you like!

Mark Miller
OSC Researcher



Halohawk I think could answer how long they have been in each city.

And the sad thing is I can do it off the top of my head...Man Mike, I need to get out more...

Marlins....Expansion Team 1993 been in Joe Robbie Stadium since them..Currently in 11th Season.

Athletics....Charter member of the American League in 1901 as the Philadelphia Athletics...Moved to Kansas City in 1955 stayed until 1967 which was 12 Seasons...Moved to Oakland for 1968 season where they have played in the Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum since..This is their 37th Season in the Bay Area...

The Tampa Bay Devil Rays came into the America League int the 1998 Expansion and have played all 6 (including current) seasons at Tropicana Field...

The Montreal Expos came into the National League in the 1969 Expansion (current season is the 35th)...The played at Parc Jarry from 1969-1976 after which they've played the last (including current) 27 seasons at Olympic Stadium...

The Minnesota Twins were a charter member of the American League in 1901 as the Washington Senators...They played in the Nation's Capitol from then until 1960 (60 Seasons) when they moved to Minnesota for the 1961 season...They played at Metropolitan Stadium from 1961 until 1981 (21 seasons) when they moved to the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome where they've resided for the last (including current 22 seasons) the team has been in Minnesota for 43 seasons combined.....

#1 – What their attitude is regarding the teams departure.

Not happy to say the least....Your saying that pro-sports are bad in so many words and they lose money for cities...

Well...

Maybe you should answer MY questions.......

Why do cities that are losing teams fight to keep them?

Why do other cities want them?

Why after they go are people so wont to have them back?

Look at the Browns, Cleveland took the NFL to court to get a "new" Browns the day Modell packed the team up....If pro sports were such a losing scheme, why do cities take leagues to court to keep teams?

#3 – Why they left

None left yet, so I don't think it's a question that can be answered...

#4 – Could the conditions leading up to their departure (or desire to leave) could occur here in Portland.

Um...Not with a new ballpark and a lease....


Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 2003 Western Conference Champions!!

Anaheim Angels 2002 World Champions!!


[This message was edited by HaloHawk94 on June 04, 2003 at 12:57 PM.]

[This message was edited by HaloHawk94 on June 04, 2003 at 12:57 PM.]

[This message was edited by HaloHawk94 on June 04, 2003 at 12:58 PM.]

Kill him with niceness all you want. Salient posts have been made to address many of Mike's issues. Ask the question point blank: Mike, are we going to change your mind here? I don't think we are. Sometimes your posts seem conciliatory, but other times they clearly aren't. Do you really have an open mind, or are you trying to goad us into a negative debate? I don't often meet open-minded people, but it would be nice if you could prove me wrong just this once.

Well Patrick you may very well speak the truth here, but...

Others that have weight in this whole process read here. My feeling is that you address people honestly and openly. Dialog works.

If the opposition is unwilling to address any of our answers, then it weakens their position.

While I may not change everyone's mind, I have found some here (Keta) to be open to debate. He is at least willing to engage on a certain level. I respect that.

Others that wish to vent and not discuss do their position harm. They may hinder things for them. No one likes being yelled at and not listened to. Regardless of our beliefs dialog will help us make MLB to Portland better by addressing valid issues.

If they are unfounded issues those that may have bearing on this campaign ignore them. Being obnoxious will, of course, work to our advantage as well.

Communication is a beautiful thing.

"PLAY BALL!"

Communication is a beautiful thing.

I'm seeing your point finally on that my friend.....They refuse to answer these 3 simple questions.....Wonder why?



Why do cities that are losing teams fight to keep them?

Why do other cities want them?

Why, after they go are people so wont to have them back?


Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 2003 Western Conference Champions!!

Anaheim Angels 2002 World Champions!!


[This message was edited by HaloHawk94 on June 04, 2003 at 02:28 PM.]

quote:

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Why after they go are people so wont to have them back?

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Huh? Is this Slovak?

"PLAY BALL!"

quote:

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Why after they go are people so wont to have them back?

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I think Halo just needed a little punctuation: "Why, after they go (i.e. teams leave a city), are people so wont (desirous) to have them back?"

We all get in a bit of a hurry and write things that don't make that much sense until we go back and look at them a second time, I'm afraid.

Did I get the "translation" right, Halo? Hey, I'm sure looking forward to meeting you in Seattle next Thursday!

Yep....You nailed it right on the money Blair...

I'm looking forward to meeting you as well!


Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 2003 Western Conference Champions!!

Anaheim Angels 2002 World Champions!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Maury:
Well Patrick you may very well speak the truth here, but...

Others that have weight in this whole process read here. My feeling is that you address people honestly and openly. Dialog works.

If the opposition is unwilling to address any of our answers, then it weakens their position.

While I may not change everyone's mind, I have found some here (Keta) to be open to debate. He is at least willing to engage on a certain level. I respect that.

Others that wish to vent and not discuss do their position harm. They may hinder things for them. No one likes being yelled at and not listened to. Regardless of our beliefs dialog will help us make MLB to Portland better by addressing valid issues.

If they are unfounded issues those that may have bearing on this campaign ignore them. Being obnoxious will, of course, work to our advantage as well.

Communication is a beautiful thing.

<FONT COLOR="#070E97" "SIZE="2" FACE="Verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif">__"PLAY BALL!"__</FONT>

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I agree with you, but implicit in your post is this concept that "dialogue" is actually a two-way thing between at least two people who are communicating. Dialogue is most effective amongst those with an open mind. That's obvious. Talking one way doesn't work, but I digress because I am not going to do it. No offense to the process was intended.