Why don't we, as a logical and reasonably responsible state, invest the funds proposed to be used in buying a baseball team into more pressing issues. The funds instead could be used in rebuilding our schools and in investing in the Transitions to Housing project. Both create jobs and are the priority in the dicussion of budget. The Transitions to Housing project is now in its third year of providing financial help (along with substance abuse help) to provide a promising future for many of Oregon's homeless and poverty stricken citizens. The TTH project is both worthy and in need of assistance. We need to Prioritize.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Can't it ever be both?

[This message was edited by HaloHawk94 on May 27, 2003 at 06:51 AM.]

>>>Why don't we, as a logical and reasonably responsible state, invest the funds proposed to be used in buying a baseball team into more pressing issues.

The flaw in this reasoning, Joseph, is that the funds which will be used for building the stadium are not available for any other use. Why? Because the funds proposed to be used for building the stadium, namely the income earned by Major League Baseball players and executives, will not exist in Oregon unless a stadium is built. HB 3606 will not take any funds which are used for social programs and divert those funds to baseball. HB 3606 will only take revenues that are earned by virtue of the team's existence, and use those funds for stadium construction. Some of those funds rather. Other monies that come into the State, and the economic boost that MLB will provide to the economy, actually will benefit the social programs that you advocate. Accordingly, now that you understand this much better, welcome to the campaign to bring Major League Baseball to Oregon. We are glad you are one of us.

Thanks for the suggestion Joseph. I work with the homeless, and one of our members works with Habitat for Humanity. I agree that there are problems that are far greater than pro sports by a long shot.

Like the homeless situation, I have racked my brain on similar issues... how do we take care of the school system that is named "public" while the citizens are now being made to pay for them? Must be a better way, right? Yet here we sit.

The homeless is extremely troubling to me. But I will ask the same question of you Joseph that you ask of us... How does one take care of this issue? What would you do? Where does the money come from? What do we do with those needing medical attention? Where does this unlimited source of money come from, because as long as there has been civilization, there have been homeless people.

As far as the Oregon Stadium Campaign is concerned, I saw a situation where an extremely large construction works project could be done; stem money from flowing out of Oregon, and bring money in, by simply taking the taxes of the players and personnel making over $50,000 a year to create these construction jobs, and a variety of other jobs, some of which may be of use to entry level people currently homeless.

It is, as Mark Cogan said, self-contained. I've been on the rolls three times, and look to the fact that others need work.

Not one person working on this earns a cent (the exception would be members employed by the Oregon Sports Authority).

If you can make a suggestion on how to raise the monies needed by means self contained, as this works project is, I will be happy to help your efforts in any manner possible.

I think that trying to give 1,500 construction workers jobs right now -- some of whom may be near homeless -- is worth something. Tell those workers that our priorities are out of line.

I believe that you can work with the homeless and bring jobs to Oregon. Remember... I am one of those people helping the homeless as well.

"PLAY BALL!"

quote:

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one of our members works with Habitat for Humanity

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That's me, I've been working basically every weekend with Portland Habitat for Humanity. I started a year ago last January and have done about 400-450 hours of work there. I even took a week off work (and I'm paid by the hour so it isn't paid vacation) to build an entire house, and this September I'm going to take time off again to help build 7 duplexes (homes for 14 families) in one week.

In case you aren't familiar with the way Habitat works, the homeowners have to, in addition to paying for the house, do 500 hours (the first 250 must be done by the people that will live in the house, the remaining 250 and be also done by friends and other family). So basically, because I enjoy it, I've done almost enough work to get a house. I don't think there is anyone that has done as many hours of volunteering in that time.

And, as Mark and Maury mentioned, the funding is totally safe for the state. Every cent in the funding for the Stadium will come from money that doesn't exist now.

--Red Sox Fan--

(admin note - fixed tag and spelling... no charge Tim - Maury)

[This message was edited by Maury on May 26, 2003 at 08:01 PM.]

Good for you, steeplechase. The campaign to bring MLB to Oregon includes many people who care about our community, and whose basic motivation in to make this a better place for folks to live. We care about educating the young. We care about providing jobs for those who are out of work. We care about providing homes for the homeless. And we care about baseball. There is no contradiction. We can have education, jobs, homes, and baseball. It is not necessary to choose one over the other. What's more, bringing MLB to Oregon will help achieve all these other objectives, because of the economic boost a MLB franchise will give to the entire State. HB 3606 has been carefully crafted to ensure that no resources from the General Treasury otherwise available for social programs will be diverted to baseball. The more who realize what this legislation will do, and will not do, the more support we have for the cause of bringing MLB to Oregon. Keep it up, and spread the word.

If you look, baseball is going to bring in jobs to the state...

So your saying you want to find the homeless jobs so they can have shelter...

But at the same time you don't want to bring in something that will provide jobs..

Personally, I think that they go hand in hand with eachother....

Baseball==Tourism===Jobs

It's a simple math problem with a good answer if you ask me....

[This message was edited by HaloHawk94 on May 27, 2003 at 06:50 AM.]

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I will say once again that it is THEIR CHOICES that put them there

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Sorry Mark, but you obviously don't know a lot of homeless people. I'll pray for you Mark... you never know what could happen to you.

We now return you to baseball.

"PLAY BALL!"

I feel kind of bad for saying what I said last night about this subject....

It's not that they are bad people, just bad circumstances I guess....

But....I will say at least 50% of them are there because of bad choices....


Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 2003 Western Conference Champions!!

Anaheim Angels 2002 World Champions!!

>>>It's not that they are bad people, just bad circumstances I guess....

Yeah, things like bad luck, mental or physical illness, substance abuse, injuries, and so forth. Blaming those who are badly off is not the solution. As you observe, there is no reason for this to be set up as a competition between human services and baseball. But the harsh things you have said about the homeless could lead an uninformed person to conclude that there IS competition between baseball and human services for scarce dollars. This is a false dichotomy, Halo, and you should know better than that. Any time we give in to that illogical reasoning, our cause suffers.

[This message was edited by Mark Cogan on May 27, 2003 at 07:04 AM.]

Censored the jackass known as myself.....


Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 2003 Western Conference Champions!!

Anaheim Angels 2002 World Champions!!

Yeah, I guess we all get carried away with ourselves sometimes.

[This message was edited by Mark Cogan on May 27, 2003 at 07:20 AM.]

I certainly agree that it doesn't have to be homeless vs baseball or education vs baseball. I too am involved through my Lions Club in Milwaukie. Our food drive helped 500 families in addition to providing glasses and hearing aides at no cost to low income people.

I know it feels to be homeless. Although it was only for about 3 months, I stayed in a homeless shelter. It is not fun. I was 19 and many things had happened to get me to that point. At the same time eventually I got my life together and figured out how to overcome the obstacles that I needed to.

Steeple-please let me know how I can get involved with Habit for Humanity. I believe it is a great cause and even more so since it is lead by former President Jimmy Carter, who like myself belongs to Lions Club.

David English
Graduate Student, Marylhurst University

quote:

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Originally posted by HaloHawk94:
Censored the jackass known as myself.....

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It's ok Halo..you can take your foot out of your mouth now! LOL

David English
Graduate Student, Marylhurst University

There are several Habitat affilaites in the Portland area, the one I work with mostly works in north, northeast Portland, but thier 'area' also covers as far south at Oregon City I think.

The office is located at 15th and Killingsworth in NE. the phone number is (503)287-9529, the volunteer coordinator is Sarah Price. Call and ask for her, or jsut explain that you'd like to volunteer. There is a volunteer orientaion you have to go to that are something like the 2nd tuesday and 3rd wednes day of every month. After that you can volunteer on any wednesday, thursday, or saturday (and some times fridays). I'm there every saturday.

And to everyone, there is a huge build that I mentioned above, 14 homes in 9 days. Yes, 14 homes in 9 days. In the middle of September (the 13th-21st, I think) we will be attempting to frame, dray in and finish 7 duplexes on one piece of property. I think, regardless of if we are awarded the Expos, it would be great to get a group out, all wearing OSC t-shirts then.

I'd love to see anyone help out, and honestly, it doesn't matter if you know anything about building, I or someone else will be happy to help you learn something . . .

--Red Sox Fan--

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Cogan:
>>>It's not that they are bad people, just bad circumstances I guess....

Yeah, things like bad luck, mental or physical illness, substance abuse, injuries, and so forth. Blaming those who are badly off is not the solution. As you observe, there is no reason for this to be set up as a competition between human services and baseball. But the harsh things you have said about the homeless could lead an uninformed person to conclude that there IS competition between baseball and human services for scarce dollars. This is a false dichotomy, Halo, and you should know better than that. Any time we give in to that illogical reasoning, our cause suffers.

[This message was edited by Mark Cogan on May 27, 2003 at 07:04 AM.]

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I don't buy that for a second. Man, too much is being made about "possible" perceptions around here. The connection is pretty tenuous and if you were in court, you would shred the assertion to bits. A person can easily see the disconnect between baseball and social services yet still have questions or problems with the general nature of homeless shelters. I tend to agree with the assertion that some of these people have put themselves in a bad position. I am not willing willing to issue a blanket assertion to cover all people and all cases, but generally speaking, you make your bed that you lie in. It's not rocket science.

Rocketman,

I don't think we meant to get into a debate about why people need social services, but instead some of us were stating that we are involved in good causes. The point is that even though we all support the campaign to bring baseball to Oregon at the same time we are involved in our community in other ways. Most of us care deeply about communities we live in.

I think it is sad that many people don't take the time to volunteer either for lack of time or caring. Reguardless of a person's view on baseball, I think helping others is a good cause. I challange everyone to look in themselves and ask if they are doing enough.

David English
Graduate Student, Marylhurst University

[This message was edited by David on May 30, 2003 at 05:09 AM.]

First of all the commercial - #1 The money you folks try to sell us this propaganda by constantly (and I mean constantly) having that obese sweaty man walking down those steps with those peanuts – come on guys. Notice no one is paying attention to this guy despite his irritating shouting. You are imposing this whole stadium campaign on us like we want this. Most people I know think that major league baseball is long, boring, and a has been sport sort of like horseracing – a dying breed. #2 How much money are you blowing on these annoying commercials. #3 I recall not too long ago they were planning to cut two teams out of the Major League because of lack of profit. #4 How many times does the MAX train go by in your propaganda commercial. I counted 3 times. And by the way North light rail another project voted down by the voters but imposed on us anyway. And airport light rail – another lost cause. The revenue figures on that are no where near where anticipated. #5 If we really all wanted this "great stadium" we would not need this advertisement asking us to support the campaign. Oh so if I send $50 you guys are just going to run the commercial of that man walking around Pioneer Place again?

This whole thing is a lost cause. I bet the whole major league quietly snickers to themselves about relocating to Portland. How many years do you prom ice to use the stadium if it is funded? Can anyone remember the Memorial Coliseum... It sits vacant now and does not pay for itself. When something does go into it, it is a circus or team hockey.

Spend the money on schools, roads, fighting crime something worthwhile or a tax cut. We are overtaxed!

Most people I know think that major league baseball is long, boring, and a has been sport sort of like horseracing – a dying breed.

Really...Glad most people you know aren't stats guys, because total MLB attendance is over 30 Million every season....Oh and minor league attendance was close to 15 Million last year...For a "dying sport" it sure seems to draw pretty nice crowds...Oh, the the Triple Crown of horse racing has sold out for the last 40 years...Sounds like it's a "dying sport" as well...

#3 I recall not too long ago they were planning to cut two teams out of the Major League because of lack of profit.

Hey! So do I! Isn't that cool remembering the good ol' days...Glad we shared that trip down memory lane together...

4 How many times does the MAX train go by in your propaganda commercial. I counted 3 times.

You count trains in commercials? Whoa...And I thought I had lived a boring existance...

#5 If we really all wanted this "great stadium" we would not need this advertisement asking us to support the campaign.

But then the people of this city would be deprived of an "obese sweaty man walking down those steps with peanuts"...

This whole thing is a lost cause.

That's what they said about the campaign of Michaeal Dukakis and look how that turned out...

I bet the whole major league quietly snickers to themselves about relocating to Portland.

Don't bet too much...They actually asked us to submit a bid...It wasn't the other way around....

Can anyone remember the Memorial Coliseum

No I forgot about it....

When something does go into it, it is a circus or team hockey.

Team hockey? As opposed to "One on One Hockey"...

something worthwhile

What like Modern Art?


Mighty Ducks of Anaheim 2003 Western Conference Champions!!

Anaheim Angels 2002 World Champions!!

Sounds like the commercials are getting some air time that is great news! Thanks for posting.

Mike you have brought up many questions that many people have. We at this forum encourage people like yourself to ask us these questions, I hope that this discussion will help educate you on this campaign.

Regarding the commercial, I would point out that political candidates and measures all have commercials promoting themselves and discouraging their opponent, I would disagree that the commercial is pointless.

In fact, it seems to be the reason you arrived here. Others will answers your pointed questions. Again, thanks for arriving here and taking the steps to post, you are welcome here to discuss and learn that the folks here are talented and dedicated individuals, who believe that baseball is a valuable step forward.

[This message was edited by smokegecko on June 03, 2003 at 01:57 PM.]

[This message was edited by smokegecko on June 03, 2003 at 01:58 PM.]